Justin Lee repeats something I’ve now heard quite a bit: anti-woman white supremacist Nick Fuentes is bad, but his fans (called “groypers”) need to be listened to and taken very seriously.
To your point about how long guys like Nick Fuentes have been around, in the early 2010s, whenever I read sonething from the manosphere critiquing feminism (Aaron Clary, et al.), I came away with two thoughts:
1. If I have a daughter, I don't want her to be like the women this article/post is talking about.
2. If I have a daughter, I don't want her to marry someone like the writer of this article or his commenter.
And yes, there is a definite trend towards "believe things because they trigger the libs" rather than "believe things because they are true."
However, I would hesitate to attribute a lot of influence to 4chan back in the day--they were pretty notorious on the Internet, but their influence on the outside world was pretty limited.
Maybe. I think the point of Nagle's book though is that what started off with limited real-world influence actually became more influential, as the real world became increasingly online.
The steel-manned version of Justin's critique that I can accept is that there is a distinct lack of cultural mercy for young men who are blackpilled about the opposite sex, whereas there is NOTHING but pity for women who have the same feeling. It's fashionable to be a man-hater and unfashionable to be an incel.
But sins don't cease to be sins because they're unfashionable, to paraphrase the Chesterton quote. And of course, incel culture is in thrall to its own fashions--a fact which is overwhelmingly obvious if you note their performative posing.
I'm not a Marxist, and so tales of misfortune sadden me, but don't persuade me that top-down solutions will be any more efficacious than they ever have been. They might help, but when data show that Americans reject industrial jobs when they're available--the supposed panacea of "agentic" work--it's hard to argue that leaning harder into that policy will solve the problem. (Also, hi Justin, if you end up reading this--let's argue about it next time we see each other.)
All that said, after speaking at length with one of these young men whose path has crossed with mine, their plight weighs heavily on my heart. I googled "how to witness to incels" recently and was saddened to find really very little that seemed to go beyond surface-level. (Maybe I missed it!) By far the most helpful thing that I read was by a random Redditor, eight years ago. So I'm posting that here in case it helps others:
"If you’re trying to help young, conservative men reject progressive ideology and reclaim a healthy purpose and maturity to their lives, the best course is not to send them “based” articles and videos. It’s to try as best as possible to extract them out of the places they’re likely to find them." Well said, Samuel. Been thinking about this quite a bit.
"The uncomfortable truth is that the mixture of internet culture and right-wing politics has not made the Web more like the right nearly as much as it has made the right more like the Internet." Very good insight here.
"And it needs to see young men as potential husbands, fathers, pastors, elders, statesmen, and leaders—not just victims." As an older "husband, father, pastor, elder and I hope statemen and leader"...I agree. Our country needs you...
Not just conservative young men all young men. Here is one idea that solves the issue around housing affordability and childcare. Both of which stand in the way of family formation. America Stability Accounts change the paradigm.
You report <"Fuentes is an authentic avatar of young men abused by the system progressives built,” Lee writes.>
Perhaps. But I think a more accurate description is "Fuentes is an avatar of young men who are outraged that their privileged position as males has been reduced to something closer to equality."
The Left tend to call this 'toxic masculinity'. I think that's wrong. Better to call it 'spoilt little boy masculinity'. A mature man wouldn't expect to dominate the women in his life; he would take heed of St. Paul's words "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." Leadership through service and self-sacrifice.
How old are you, Bob? Because your first paragraph might--might!--describe people who listen to Nick Fuentes and are over the age of forty.
Any man under the age of forty is going to look at that paragraph and dismiss you completely, and if they're under thirty the dismissal will probably be somewhat rude. They have never lived in the world you described.
Perhaps I've had a few more years to think though these issues than 'any man under the age of forty'. In fact, I've been married to the one woman for over fifty years now.
Or it could be that you are projecting your own experiences onto the lives of those younger than you. Seriously, your first paragraph reeks of "I think things are the same now as when I was young."
I have news for you, they are not, and any good advice that you might have on this topic will not be listened to if you introduce that kind of sneering condescension into the conversation.
<"I think things are the same now as when I was young.">
Actually I am very much aware that many things have changed. Overall, I think that the male-female power balance has changed for the better, but change always creates uncertainty and anxiety. Specially for those who consider themselves adversely impacted.
Please educate me, Tom. What would your advice to (say) a twenty-five-year-old male be? My instinct is to go with what Paul said, but if you can say it better I'm eager to listen.
Bob, again, you still don't get it. The world had already changed by the time said twenty-five year old man was born.
I would not tell him that the fact that the broader culture denigrates him and expects him to give and give and ask to give more and that all he deserves in return is an attaboy at best is Good, Actually.
No, what I would say is: "yeah, the deck's stacked against you. Yeah, you're mocked and derided. Yeah, you're still confused by this talk of male privilege, because you've never experienced it. Yeah, you've seen how most big-name churches and popular culture coddle the women and hammer the men.
"I get it. Be Christlike anyway, and work in anticipation of hearing, when you come before God, "well done, good and faithful servant, come with honor into the place I have prepared for you."
I would also not recommend that you be the one to speak to the young men in your church, given that your default reaction is not "Let's see if you're the problem in this situation" but "you're definitely the problem."
Friendly reminder that despite Jesus being the ultimate example of Christlikeness, the world still killed Him.
<I would not tell him that the fact that the broader culture denigrates him...>
Nor would I. Because the broader culture does NOT denigrate him. The broader culture still pays males more than females, expects females to do more unpaid work in general. Count male vs. female numbers in Congress, Boards of Directors or other positions of authority.
<"Yeah, you've seen how most big-name churches and popular culture coddle the women and hammer the men.">
What? On my planet, most big-name churches don't allow women into leadership positions. The biggest don't even allow them to be priests.
<your default reaction is not "Let's see if you're the problem in this situation" but "you're definitely the problem.">
How sweet of you to attribute to me words that I never spoke! In fact, quite the opposite to what I would speak "to the young men in my church". The young men in my church are respectful of women, not resentful, and seem to have no problems relaying positively and joyfully with the young women who respect them in return.
<I get it. Be Christlike anyway, and work in anticipation of hearing, when you come before God, "well done, good and faithful servant.">
Excellent advice, even if I detect a hint of an ironic sneer. What could be better than hearing those words? And in the meantime, a healthy and joyful community life with your brothers and sisters. The alternative, of wanting to be 'important' or to 'have authority' over others, is so childish in comparison.
<despite Jesus being the ultimate example of Christlikeness, the world still killed Him.>
Yep. It's called 'the Way of the Cross'. The exact opposite of the Prosperity Gospel. Triumphalism and the drive to dominate is not a sign of a church that follows Paul's advice to "submit to one another". Jesus tells us to count the cost. I would advise young men that it's well worth the price. And THEN the most important part of my advice is to SHOW by example how it's done. I'm still not very good at that bit, but it's good for the youngsters to see that even an old fogey tries.
To your point about how long guys like Nick Fuentes have been around, in the early 2010s, whenever I read sonething from the manosphere critiquing feminism (Aaron Clary, et al.), I came away with two thoughts:
1. If I have a daughter, I don't want her to be like the women this article/post is talking about.
2. If I have a daughter, I don't want her to marry someone like the writer of this article or his commenter.
And yes, there is a definite trend towards "believe things because they trigger the libs" rather than "believe things because they are true."
However, I would hesitate to attribute a lot of influence to 4chan back in the day--they were pretty notorious on the Internet, but their influence on the outside world was pretty limited.
Maybe. I think the point of Nagle's book though is that what started off with limited real-world influence actually became more influential, as the real world became increasingly online.
This is really good and is what I’ve been wanting to say to too many young men I see today (I’m 60). You are not a victim unless you agree to be such.
The steel-manned version of Justin's critique that I can accept is that there is a distinct lack of cultural mercy for young men who are blackpilled about the opposite sex, whereas there is NOTHING but pity for women who have the same feeling. It's fashionable to be a man-hater and unfashionable to be an incel.
But sins don't cease to be sins because they're unfashionable, to paraphrase the Chesterton quote. And of course, incel culture is in thrall to its own fashions--a fact which is overwhelmingly obvious if you note their performative posing.
I'm not a Marxist, and so tales of misfortune sadden me, but don't persuade me that top-down solutions will be any more efficacious than they ever have been. They might help, but when data show that Americans reject industrial jobs when they're available--the supposed panacea of "agentic" work--it's hard to argue that leaning harder into that policy will solve the problem. (Also, hi Justin, if you end up reading this--let's argue about it next time we see each other.)
All that said, after speaking at length with one of these young men whose path has crossed with mine, their plight weighs heavily on my heart. I googled "how to witness to incels" recently and was saddened to find really very little that seemed to go beyond surface-level. (Maybe I missed it!) By far the most helpful thing that I read was by a random Redditor, eight years ago. So I'm posting that here in case it helps others:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/8wz9jk/someones_gotta_be_evangelist_to_the_incels/
Very insightful work. Great food for thought.
"If you’re trying to help young, conservative men reject progressive ideology and reclaim a healthy purpose and maturity to their lives, the best course is not to send them “based” articles and videos. It’s to try as best as possible to extract them out of the places they’re likely to find them." Well said, Samuel. Been thinking about this quite a bit.
"The uncomfortable truth is that the mixture of internet culture and right-wing politics has not made the Web more like the right nearly as much as it has made the right more like the Internet." Very good insight here.
"And it needs to see young men as potential husbands, fathers, pastors, elders, statesmen, and leaders—not just victims." As an older "husband, father, pastor, elder and I hope statemen and leader"...I agree. Our country needs you...
Not just conservative young men all young men. Here is one idea that solves the issue around housing affordability and childcare. Both of which stand in the way of family formation. America Stability Accounts change the paradigm.
I very much agree.
You report <"Fuentes is an authentic avatar of young men abused by the system progressives built,” Lee writes.>
Perhaps. But I think a more accurate description is "Fuentes is an avatar of young men who are outraged that their privileged position as males has been reduced to something closer to equality."
The Left tend to call this 'toxic masculinity'. I think that's wrong. Better to call it 'spoilt little boy masculinity'. A mature man wouldn't expect to dominate the women in his life; he would take heed of St. Paul's words "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." Leadership through service and self-sacrifice.
How old are you, Bob? Because your first paragraph might--might!--describe people who listen to Nick Fuentes and are over the age of forty.
Any man under the age of forty is going to look at that paragraph and dismiss you completely, and if they're under thirty the dismissal will probably be somewhat rude. They have never lived in the world you described.
You've nailed me in one hit, Tom! Congrats!
Perhaps I've had a few more years to think though these issues than 'any man under the age of forty'. In fact, I've been married to the one woman for over fifty years now.
https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-lost-generation/
Or it could be that you are projecting your own experiences onto the lives of those younger than you. Seriously, your first paragraph reeks of "I think things are the same now as when I was young."
I have news for you, they are not, and any good advice that you might have on this topic will not be listened to if you introduce that kind of sneering condescension into the conversation.
<"I think things are the same now as when I was young.">
Actually I am very much aware that many things have changed. Overall, I think that the male-female power balance has changed for the better, but change always creates uncertainty and anxiety. Specially for those who consider themselves adversely impacted.
Please educate me, Tom. What would your advice to (say) a twenty-five-year-old male be? My instinct is to go with what Paul said, but if you can say it better I'm eager to listen.
Bob, again, you still don't get it. The world had already changed by the time said twenty-five year old man was born.
I would not tell him that the fact that the broader culture denigrates him and expects him to give and give and ask to give more and that all he deserves in return is an attaboy at best is Good, Actually.
No, what I would say is: "yeah, the deck's stacked against you. Yeah, you're mocked and derided. Yeah, you're still confused by this talk of male privilege, because you've never experienced it. Yeah, you've seen how most big-name churches and popular culture coddle the women and hammer the men.
"I get it. Be Christlike anyway, and work in anticipation of hearing, when you come before God, "well done, good and faithful servant, come with honor into the place I have prepared for you."
I would also not recommend that you be the one to speak to the young men in your church, given that your default reaction is not "Let's see if you're the problem in this situation" but "you're definitely the problem."
Friendly reminder that despite Jesus being the ultimate example of Christlikeness, the world still killed Him.
Tom,
<I would not tell him that the fact that the broader culture denigrates him...>
Nor would I. Because the broader culture does NOT denigrate him. The broader culture still pays males more than females, expects females to do more unpaid work in general. Count male vs. female numbers in Congress, Boards of Directors or other positions of authority.
<"Yeah, you've seen how most big-name churches and popular culture coddle the women and hammer the men.">
What? On my planet, most big-name churches don't allow women into leadership positions. The biggest don't even allow them to be priests.
<your default reaction is not "Let's see if you're the problem in this situation" but "you're definitely the problem.">
How sweet of you to attribute to me words that I never spoke! In fact, quite the opposite to what I would speak "to the young men in my church". The young men in my church are respectful of women, not resentful, and seem to have no problems relaying positively and joyfully with the young women who respect them in return.
<I get it. Be Christlike anyway, and work in anticipation of hearing, when you come before God, "well done, good and faithful servant.">
Excellent advice, even if I detect a hint of an ironic sneer. What could be better than hearing those words? And in the meantime, a healthy and joyful community life with your brothers and sisters. The alternative, of wanting to be 'important' or to 'have authority' over others, is so childish in comparison.
<despite Jesus being the ultimate example of Christlikeness, the world still killed Him.>
Yep. It's called 'the Way of the Cross'. The exact opposite of the Prosperity Gospel. Triumphalism and the drive to dominate is not a sign of a church that follows Paul's advice to "submit to one another". Jesus tells us to count the cost. I would advise young men that it's well worth the price. And THEN the most important part of my advice is to SHOW by example how it's done. I'm still not very good at that bit, but it's good for the youngsters to see that even an old fogey tries.